TRANSCRIPT Ep. 306 | Podathon Day 1: Evolutionary Astrology, with Dabney Lawless!

TRANSCRIPT Ep. 306
Podathon Day 1: Evolutionary Astrology, with Dabney Lawless!

It’s Podathon Week on the Big Sky Astrology Podcast, and for five big days in a row, we’re bringing you special episodes that put the fun in fundraising! Including the week’s planetary news, a closer look at the Moon, and special Podathon surprises. Plus – your chance to win prizes, people, so many prizes! And now here’s your host, astrologer and author April Elliott Kent.

Hello, Invisible Friend, April here, and the date today is September 1st, 2025. Welcome to Episode 306 of the Big Sky Astrology Podcast. And welcome to the 6th Annual Big Sky Astrology Podathon!

“What is a Podathon?” you might well ask. Well, this is the week each year when I bring you five daily episodes, complete with the big astrological news of the week, and this week with interviews with five fabulous astrologers of different astrological specialties.

Of course, this is also the week when I make my appeal for donations, which help me cover the cost of producing the podcast for the entire year.

And before we get started, I really do need to take a moment to say thank you to all of you who’ve helped the show over the past year, whether by making a donation, leaving a review, or to be honest, just by tuning in. Listenership for the podcast has continued to grow, and I’m thrilled to think that so many of you are tuning in and finding value in the podcast. I absolutely couldn’t make this show without you, and I truly appreciate your support.

But while I do my best to run a tight ship, there are costs associated with producing this weekly show, and I would much rather turn to my listeners to help cover those costs than to take on advertising. I’m a big podcast listener myself, and so many of the shows that I enjoy have turned to an advertising model that really interferes with the flow of the shows and my enjoyment of them. And I’m going to assume that many of you feel the same.

And so, once a year, during Labor Day Week, I give you Podathon, and then the rest of the year, we don’t have to talk about fundraising. You can make a one-time donation in any amount or become a regular monthly contributor. Just go to BigSkyAstropod.com.

And to encourage your donations, here are this year’s fantastic giveaways. First, everyone who donates $25 or more, as well as our ongoing monthly podpal contributors, will be entered in a drawing for a chance to win one of these prizes. One grand prize winner will win a 90-minute reading with me. That is a $275 value. Two lucky listeners will win a 60-minute personal astrology reading with me, a $215 value. Three lucky donors will win a copy of my Followed by a Moondhadow Eclipse Report, a $35 value, to help you get ready for this month’s eclipses.

To be entered in the drawing, you need to make your $25 donation at BigSkyAstro pod.com no later than midnight on Monday, September 8th. The drawing will be held on September 9th, and the winners will be notified by email.

“But April,” you say, “What if I can’t contribute that much?” I am so glad you asked! I’m also offering donors of only $10 or more a special bonus, a series of private YouTube videos for donors only. Over the past year, I’ve met with donors virtually for most New Moons, going in depth on big planetary transits and the New Moon symbolism.

I also want to say, I know that not everyone can contribute financially. This year has been a little bit up and down financially for so many people, but there are a lot of ways you can support the show and help it get noticed by other listeners without spending a cent.

If you enjoy the show, please subscribe or follow the show on your app of choice. This is the very best way you can support the show and help it get noticed by other listeners. You could also leave a five-star rating or write a nice review either on Apple Podcasts or any of the other podcast platforms that allow comments. These really make my day, and they also inspire others to sample the show. You can join the conversation on my website and make a comment at BigSkyAstropod.com. Just click on whichever episode you want to comment on. And finally, please recommend the show to an astrology-loving friend. However you choose to show your support, please know that I am deeply grateful.

And now for today’s episode!

Monday’s Planetary News

In this week’s special daily episodes, I will be covering the week’s major astrological news, and each day, an interview with a fellow astrologer, each practicing in a particular astrological specialty – Hellenistic astrology, Vedic, Psychological, and Astrocartography. And today I will be speaking with the wonderful Dabney Lawless of the wonderfully named Lawless Astrology about her specialty, Evolutionary Astrology.

But first, let’s take a look at today’s planetary news, and we do have something fairly special today. At 1:05 AM Pacific Time, Saturn retrogrades back into his previous sign, Pisces and will be there through February 16th, 2026, at which time it will return to Aries. Since Saturn entered Aries back on May 24th, creating new things, setting new boundaries and structures has been more oriented, even while Saturn’s been traveling with Neptune in early Aries, which feels like it should have a somewhat softer quality.

As a person who has planets and points in early Leo and Sagittarius, I have to say that I have found this brief foray of Saturn into Aries a lot more refreshing than I expected.

Now that Saturn returns to Pisces for a while, the focus returns to spiritual foundations, emotional boundaries, rather than that outer-focused, “let’s get it done” quality of Aries. This return of Saturn to Pisces overlaps with eclipse season, which begins at the very end of this week with a Full Moon lunar eclipse that’s also in Pisces, and the Solar Eclipse at 29 Virgo on September 21st, makes a close opposition to Saturn in Pisces. Here’s the kind of lesson this last pass of Saturn in Pisces might be suggesting we look at: think about the way your parents taught you to treat other people, to be kind and thoughtful, and to put yourself in their place to imagine how you should behave with them. If you have lost track of these kinds of behaviors in recent months, now is the time to revisit them and to remind yourself that it’s important to be kind as well as productive moving forward.

This Labor Day Monday brings a very brief Void-of-Course Moon in Sagittarius. The Moon squares Saturn at 6:38 PM and enters Capricorn at 6:44 PM. This Void-of-Course Moon sees the Moon in Sagittarius, which is pretty exuberant and freedom-loving, getting reigned in just a little bit by Saturn, again, with that message of being kind to each other.

And then when the Moon goes into Capricorn this evening, it’s a couple day period of getting back to work, focusing on our main objectives, and working hard to achieve what we want.

Interview: Evolutionary Astrologer Dabney Lawless

So this Podathon week, I’m bringing you interviews with five colleagues, each of whom will tell us about their particular astrological specialty. Our first interview in this series is with Evolutionary Astrologer, Dabney Lawless. You may have visited Dabney’s YouTube page, Lawless Astrology, where she does a lot of great astrology. Here is our conversation.

April: My guest today is Dabney Lawless, which is the most awesome name ever. She is an Evolutionary astrologer who trained with the divine Steven Forrest. She studied with him for over 20 years and she achieved his master level apprenticeship certification. In the 2000s, she was the resident astrologer for Parents Magazine, Pregnancy and Newborn Magazine and Working Mother. Her astrology work has been featured on The Today Show, The Bump, Yogi Times, People.com, and Astrology.com, where she had a regular column on parenthood and relationship astrology. Dabney had a thriving public relations career for over 25 years, and she lives in Northern California with her husband, teenage son, three cats, and several chickens. She is the host of OPA’s Mercury Hour, has spoken at OPA events – and OPA is the Organization for Professional Astrology, for anyone who doesn’t know that, a really great organization. She completed the Centre for Relationships and Astrology certification, and more recently completed a mentorship program with Astrologer Anne Ortelee. Dabney, it is a delight to welcome you to the Big Sky Astrology Podcast.

Dabney: Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. I need to shorten my bio. That’s too much for everyone to listen to, but I really appreciate you giving everybody the info!

April: How long have you been running your YouTube channel?

Dabney: A year.

April: Is that all? Oh gosh. You do a wonderful job. I was a guest on your YouTube channel at one point.

Dabney: I want you to come back soon.

April: I would love to do that! Well, let’s tell everybody a little bit about Evolutionary Astrology. How long were you doing astrology before you found the evolutionary path?

Dabney: No time at all. That’s all I’ve ever studied. So, how I got into astrology is I had a really devastating breakup in my twenties and I went to see an astrologer and she was terrible. And I was like, I could do a better job. So I drove to a bookstore and I bought Steven Forrest’s book, The Inner Sky, and just …everything clicked. And then there was a little ad in the back, the websites, the way there are today. And it said that he had an apprenticeship program, so I started studying with Steven at that time.

April: So you started out in a really good place.

Dabney: I did. I lucked out. And also, you know, that was really… once I found what resonated with me, I haven’t studied anything else until very recently. I tried to study some other things. Like I, you know, in my bio, like I tried to learn some predictive astrology. Which I realized, I love it, listening to it, but it’s not… I’m not really as awesome at it. It’s not my calling. I’m not great at making predictions. So yeah, Evolutionary Astrology is just my jam.

April: Tell us about Evolutionary Astrology, for those in my audience who are not familiar with it. I actually get a lot of questions about it. How does it differ from other approaches to astrology, especially in how it looks at the birth chart? What would you say really sets it apart?

Dabney: What’s interesting about Evolutionary Astrology, it’s a modern form of astrology, so it definitely takes kind of our current world into consideration. You know, there’s all these different forms of astrology that throughout history have been used to help predict when the king should, you know, send the troops into battle, or when is the most auspicious time to, you know, have an heir.

The traditional stuff to me always felt a little bit harder to wrap my head around. The Evolutionary Astrology combines modern psychology, Jungian psychology, and it kind of combines more esoteric astrology. So, what it really is, is looking at how you can take the birth chart and see what is the best life that you can live.

So, that’s the beginning framework for me, is to think that astrology and a birth chart will illustrate when you’re on track in your life and when you’re off track in your life. How that map, we can really dig into it and see that both of those options are available to us at any time and where are we’re gonna be consciously leaning into it.

And so Evolutionary Astrology, Jeff Wolf Green and Steven Forrest, were two of the originators. There have subsequently been several other important people that have contributed to Evolutionary Astrology that are teachers that I admire. At the end of the day, Pluto and the North and South Nodes are very important. They have kind of an elevated status within Evolutionary Astrology at helping you understand yourself and what you’re here to do in this lifetime.

April: From what I’ve read or heard of Evolutionary Astrology, there is talk of the soul’s journey across lifetimes. How do you see past lives in a birth chart? Is it really this thing about the Nodes – and the South Node being the past, maybe in the North Node being the past future, and Pluto just being transformation, generally. Am I on the right track there?

Dabney: Yeah, absolutely. So when I do an astrology reading, I do it very similarly to other people in the sense that we start with the Sun and the Moon and the Ascendant. But I am putting all the information of the chart and really looking at it through the lens of the North and the South Node. Now, not everybody that comes to me for a reading or for teachings has to believe in past lives or reincarnation. That is one way of looking at it. I have my own personal beliefs, but I don’t believe that I know the mysteries of life.

I know that this resonated with me. It helped explain so much about my own personal journey. But if you don’t believe in reincarnation or past lives, it literally can be like epigenetics, like your DNA and ancestral lineage. Or it can be just going on faith that the Saturn, that the North Node and the South Node are just patterns that we are ingrained and believe in.

So, I speak in karmic language, however, I am very open to the idea that it could be family lineage, it could just be your own personal patterns. But the point of Evolutionary Astrology is to get to a higher plane, to get to a more conscious way of living using the stars, using the planetary energy to help guide you.

The birth chart is a roadmap that can very clearly show you what your best life can look like, and also what it looks like when you are caught in an unconscious pattern. And an unconscious pattern happens to all of us. And that’s why it’s unconscious.

April: Yeah. Right. Hence the name.

Dabney: Yeah, that’s the name. And so having this tool to me is a gift, because we’re gonna keep falling back into our South Node.

So let me break it down. The South Node is where we come from. It’s that habitual patterning. And so that could be looked at as the past life, it could be looked as ancestral lineage, but it is the thing that has got you stuck and something went wrong.

So, we look at it from a kind of more negative viewpoint, even though there are gifts that come with the South Node. So in more traditional astrology, the South Node isn’t looked at through so much of a negative lens. They they look at it more as sort of this balancing point of the tail and the head of the dragon. But through Evolutionary Astrology, it really is this sort of acknowledgement of the gifts that you’ve been given through some of this habitual patterning, but also where it maybe keeps you stuck.

And stretching yourself to the North Node, which is where your soul wants to go, can help you live a more free life. A life like that flows a little bit more, because ultimately, that is what your soul is choosing. It’s saying, this is what I want to do, but it takes a consciousness, like you can’t just wake up and do what you always are used to doing, because then you’re gonna just keep doing what you’re used to doing, like being on a merry ground.

April: Which we know from regular life as well, when we find ourselves stuck in a kind of profession that we’ve been doing forever, and doing it in the same way all the time, and we get really stuck and stagnant and bored. How do you frame this for people? I always struggle with this when I’m working with clients and they have a really difficult planet in a conjunction with the North Node.

Dabney: So that’s an interesting one, the North Node. For an example, are you thinking like someone has Pluto conjunct the North Node?

April: Or Saturn or something.

Dabney: Okay, so it’s so individual, but very much this is what I would do, is I would look at the South Node and I would look at what sign the South Node is in, what house the South Node is in. That starts to give you kind of a clear picture about what they’re here to work on, what they’re here to release or let go of. If there is a challenging planet like Saturn that is conjunct the North Node, that means it’s opposite the South Node. So that was something that they had to contend with in a past life; that was a force that pulled against them in some way. Like an opposition.

I mean, an opposition is like, we have to negotiate to get this problem solved, but it feels like I’m being torn apart. So, I take that element of the Saturn and put it into the story. That’s a piece of the puzzle. So then I would look at the kind of negative side of that, where it’s okay, you were oppressed, you were constricted, you worked too hard. I mean, there’s other clues with different planetary aspects, and like I said, the house and the sign and the ruler of the, you know, so there’s all these different pieces that come into it. But you would look at it through kind of a negative lens when you’re looking at the South Node, and then you would look at it through the positive lens in the North Node.

You would say, what is the evolutionary purpose of having Saturn here? Is that you are responsible, that you have authority, that you have agency and power in some way, that you’re reclaiming that. So, you know, you may have been under someone’s thumb in a past life. Doesn’t mean that you want to put someone under your thumb in this life, but it means that you want to protect and provide for other people. So that’s kind of how I would sort of balance that out.

April: How would an Evolutionary Astrology reading be different from, say, a regular modern or traditional reading? What’s the client experience going to be like? And I know, of course, that will vary depending on the astrologer.

Dabney: So, I think those of us that are attracted to this kind of astrology, generally speaking, in my experience, are a little bit more psychologically oriented. Maybe a little bit more like eighth housey in some ways, or 12th housey. There is this psychology and spirituality piece that we obviously have to be attracted to, to begin with. So, when I had readings done by Steven Forrest, and I had many over the years, they would move me to tears sometimes. They really just kind of cut to the chase.

So, when I do readings, my style is definitely different than Steven’s. I think every astrologer is different. So, you know, he records his readings, so his readings would be very much like a one-sided monologue from him. Whereas my readings are much more of a dialogue. When I start out with a reading, first of all, I just ask you, you know, what do you want to work on?

That’s, you know, what’s up for you? And then I will sort of take you through some of the basic stuff I’ve already got in my mind, sort of some of the patterning that I’m seeing in the North and South Node, and I ask questions. So, you know, I sort of started to find out what was your family of origin like?

Some people like to talk about their wounding and trauma, and some people, it’s off limits, and they would rather just have you talk. Most of the people who come to me understand that it is a little bit more of a two-way street, and that I am helping interpret the chart to help get them to a place of moving through whatever has ailed them in the past, versus predicting “you’ll meet the love of your life tomorrow.”

I think if you’re wanting an Evolutionary Astrology reading, the reasons to have that is, one, you feel blocked in some way in your life. You feel like frustrated. You feel like you have not been true to yourself. Something feels off.

That is one reason – you’re just not happy, and you’re looking for what, why, what is this? Why does this keep happening to me? That’s a common theme. Why does this keep happening to me? So Evolutionary Astrology can help you see that clearly.

Also, I think, finding purpose. We look at magazines, or we look at TV or social media. I guess no one looks at magazines anymore, but now it’s been replaced with social media. But there is sort of this false image. It’s all fake, yet we’re being given a prescription – you need to be this, you need to be that. And everybody is so unique.

I think that when I learned what is my mission, what am I here to do, then I could kind of funnel my energy into that. And I think when people are looking for the “What am I here to do? What is my purpose?”, an Evolutionary Astrology reading can be really profound for that, if you are feeling kind of lost.

On the other hand, a traditional astrology reading, like like I said, there’s so many amazing astrologers and so I think it’s, what are you looking for?

So if you are literally looking for somebody to tell you, I’ve had this experience where I’ve had people come to me, and they really, they want a partner, and they’re frustrated that they haven’t found the love of their life.

You know, I always want to give them hope, I always want to give them like, you know, here’s when I see there are good opportunities. Right? And so I can say that over and over again. I mean, I’m sincere what I see, like, you might have Jupiter going into your seventh house or whatever, but there’s always opportunities.

I’m thinking of this one client who came back to me for several readings. And then finally I gave them a, just a very honest, Evolutionary Astrology reading where I confronted them a little bit more with some of the patterning. She was very quiet. It wasn’t our usual, like, “maybe next month,” you know what I mean? And very shortly after, she found a relationship. So, I think it has the ability to help you unblock things if you’re ready.

April: Right. And much less, as you said in the beginning, about this predictive process. For me, it is much more, as you’re saying, about helping figure out, well, why hasn’t it happened, this thing that you want so much? And let’s dig into that and look at it.

What do you think about the Pluto thing? Because you mentioned that a lot of people are really afraid of Pluto and what it represents. And also, do you think that people who are more interested in traditional astrology, where the generational planets are not used as much, do you think that would be sort of a blockage to them really appreciating Evolutionary Astrology? Or just basically, what do you think Pluto is bringing to Evolutionary Astrology?

Dabney: The way I see Pluto is, because it is a collective planet, it’s a little bit of how we interact with the world around us.

It’s a little bit less of that personality. It doesn’t form your personality in quite the same way. It does form your personality, but collectively, and so where, you know, because you’re gonna be part of a generation that has Pluto in that sign, right? So that’s where it, it helps you interact with your peers.

I have Pluto in Libra and Pluto in Libra, we all had a similar sort of experience in some ways. Where is Pluto in your individual chart? Well then, which house will then give you that much more information about then how you take that sort of collective experience and personalize it and what you need to work on?

So Pluto can be a place where we have tremendous power and strength. It can be a place where we can become obsessed. I have Pluto in the ninth house, obviously, I’m obsessed with politics.

April: I have it there, too. I’m obsessed with avoiding politics at this point in life.

Dabney: I love that.

April: Yeah. Those ninth house things. I also think it’s a planet that says, here is where I refuse to be told what to think or believe. And the house that’s in, I think, really tells us that, because boy, don’t tell me what religion I’m supposed to follow or political system or anything, I do not want to hear it. So it’s a pretty intense symbol.

Dabney: It is incredibly intense, and it will give you information about yourself. And one of the things I learned by getting a reading from someone who studied under Jeffrey Wolf Green directly was that they take, they really look at the polarity of Pluto as almost like the answer to that. Because there is so much strength and power in that, in that positioning, wherever that is, and understanding the polarity, the opposite house, and really leaning into that helps alleviate some of the challenging aspects of Pluto. Which can be that obsession, which can be that desire and belief that you are IT, you are the God of the underworld.

There is this feeling with Pluto, wherever it is, that like you do know everything about it, you feel that power in yourself. And that sometimes can be a positive thing, depending on your chart, but sometimes you need to balance it out. And so with, for us, with our ninth house Pluto, part of what the antidote is, is leaning into the third house of relativity, not being so opinionated, not thinking we have all the answers.

Seeing things from a different perspective and then communicating it and sharing it with other people. So, I think that’s a really interesting thing that I had learned about Evolutionary Astrology that I don’t feel like Steven does as much. He puts an emphasis on Pluto, but he puts a big emphasis – and so do I as a result – on Pluto transits.

April: I remember having a reading with him and he started by saying, “I’m going to tell you a story, and I don’t know if it’s factual, but I know that it’s true.” I love that and always remembered it because we can’t say for sure with something like Evolutionary Astrology or any kind of astrologer who believes in past lives, thinks that that idea has currency and relevance, but we can never actually know.

And what I loved about the way he said that is, this is a symbolic art that we do, and we’re saying… it kind of feels like this. I don’t know that this was exactly what happened to you, but I know that this is the residue that you’re carrying with you into this life to deal with. Oh, he’s so eloquent. He says things so beautifully.

Dabney: He is. You know, I’ll never be as eloquent as Steven, but I’ve come to accept now and develop my own style. Because I think in the beginning, there is this intimidation when you’re learning astrology that you want to be like your teacher, you want to do them proud.

And one of the things with Steven that I’ve come to realize, too, is he’s somewhat just psychic. You know, he just has such a powerful intuition that he sort of lets his intuition guide him. I remember when I first started studying with him, he told this story about how controversial Evolutionary Astrology was, because there were literally other astrologers that were attacking them, saying that they’re just making it up because it, you know, they took their own kind of intuition and they developed a new way of looking at the chart.

All I can say is it was very profound and spoke to me. Steven’s touched a lot of people’s lives, and I know with the work that I do, I get a lot of really good feedback from people about it, actually validating their experience, helping give them purpose, helping guide them.

So, the way I look at it is there’s an element of channeling, right? Like you just get into a flow, when you’re talking to the other person and looking at their chart where it just all kind of comes together and coalesces into a story that may or may not be true, but is like you, you know, like you said, may or not be factual, but is true and they can validate that experience for you.

April: Great. Is there anything else you would like to tell my little podcast audience here that you think we haven’t covered and is really important about Evolutionary Astrology?

Dabney: You know, I think if you’re curious, there are some amazing evolutionary astrologers out there, and you can go to YouTube or you can look through the podcasts and if you like, type in “Evolutionary Astrology,” you can get sort of a feel for the different astrologers.

April: I think that he has a list on his website, Steven doesn’t he, of people who have trained with him. So that’s also a resource.

Dabney: Yeah. Steven doesn’t do readings anymore. He still does readings, but, um, he’s closed his waiting list. Because he says it’s, yeah, his waiting list was from 10 years ago or something.

April: I was so lucky, I caught him when he first came to Southern California and he wasn’t filled up yet, so it was fantastic.

Dabney, thank you so much. It has been wonderful to talk to you. I think my heart is with Evolutionary Astrology to some extent, but I have not gotten to the point where I’m willing to say, yes, this is where I’m gonna plant my flag. But I’ve sure enjoyed hearing you talk about it.

And as I said, a lot of people in this podcast audience ask about it a lot and also about the lunar nodes. So I think they’re gonna find what you had to say very interesting. And thank you so much for taking the time.

Dabney: Thank you. I hope I’ve done it justice.

April: You have been wonderful. Where can people find you and do you have something coming up soon that you’d like people to know about?

Dabney: You can just check out my YouTube channel, Lawless Astrology.

April: And you have a website, right?

Dabney: Yeah, LawlessAstrology.com. I actually am booked out for readings currently. I’ll be opening some up in October if you want to get on my wait list. But I think the bigger thing is, you know, I offer classes and workshops and things like that, so if you’re on my YouTube, you’ll see that.

April: Yay. Thank you so much. And I see a kitty cat has come to visit you, so that’s a good place for us to say goodbye for now.

Dabney: All right, thank you, April.

I hope you enjoyed this interview. I enjoyed bringing it to you. This interview, and really almost all of my interviews for this week, went a lot longer than I had expected. And it was very difficult to decide what to cut out for the podcast episodes. But I hope that you got a lot out of this interview because I actually really did.

Donor Thanks

That is everything on my show sheet, so I’m gonna wrap this one up. Thank you for listening to the Big Sky Astrology podcast and joining me for the first episode of the 6th Annual Podathon. It’s so hard to believe that I’ve been doing these Podathons for six years!

This weekly podcast is audience-funded, and your generous donations help me keep the podcast coming to you ad-free. To make your donation, please go to BigSkyAstropod.com. Anyone who donates $10 or more will receive access to a series of private YouTube videos for donors only throughout the year. And if you donate $25 or more, you will automatically be entered in my drawing for a chance to win a 90-minute reading, a 60-minute reading, or one of my Moonshadow eclipse reports.

As longtime listeners know, I love to thank all my financial donors on the air over the next 12 months. If you do not want me to mention your name, please just email me april@bigskyastrology.com. You are also gonna receive a donor email that has this information, but I wanted to make sure to mention it here, too.

This week I’m thanking monthly donor, Cathy Sullivan-Thompson, and donor Bernice Harmyk!

Bernice and Kathy, thank you so much for listening and for supporting the show with your donations.

Thanks very much to all of you for helping me kick off this 6th Annual Podathon! Join me again, bright and early tomorrow morning for another episode, including an interview with Vedic astrologer, Kenneth Miller! And until then, keep your feet on the ground and your eyes on the stars.

Announcer: That’s it for today. Don’t forget to make your donation at Bigskyastropod.com – and join us each Labor Day weekday for another very special episode of the Big Sky Astrology Podcast.